Cooper Interviews Liz Cheney

Full transcript is available at CNN. The transcript below is extracted from the full transcript.

L. CHENEY:But I think that, in fact, what's happened is, my dad has stood up and said: Wait a minute. If you're going to be the transparency president, and if you're going to libel the brave men and women who conducted this program, and if you're going to release information that helps the terrorists, at least you ought to release the information that tells the American people what we learned from this program.

COOPER: Your father said today -- and you have said it in the past -- and your father repeated it today -- he's said it a lot -- that -- that, basically, what happened in Abu Ghraib was an isolated incident. He -- he termed them sadistic prison guards.

Isn't that -- goes against the evidence, that, basically, there was a line between what happened in Guantanamo Bay and what happened in Bagram Air Base and what happened later on in Abu Ghraib?

L. CHENEY: No, I think that's just absolutely wrong, Anderson.

I mean, I think, first of all, the enhanced interrogation program, which the president has now stopped, was a program that was run by the Central Intelligence Agency, designed by the CIA, approved by everybody in the administration. And...

COOPER: So, you're saying there's no connection between all these?

L. CHENEY: No, absolutely. There's no connection.

COOPER: Isn't that -- but that goes against...

L. CHENEY: No. There's...

COOPER: That goes against what the Schlesinger report says.

L. CHENEY: For you to assert -- for you to assert...

COOPER: It's not -- it's not me. It's what the Schlesinger report, which was an independent report by a Republican...

L. CHENEY: No. But the Schlesinger report did not say that Abu Ghraib was U.S. policy.

COOPER: Well, no, the Schlesinger said what -- what...

L. CHENEY: And Abu Ghraib...

COOPER: And I have it right here.

It says, "Although specifically limited by the secretary of defense to Guantanamo and requiring his personal approval, given in only two cases, the augmented interrogation techniques for Guantanamo migrated to Afghanistan and Iraq, where they were neither limited, nor safeguarded."

L. CHENEY: OK, but that's not talking about Abu Ghraib.

And what we have seen at Abu Ghraib and the photos that we saw out of Abu Ghraib were clearly about crimes.

COOPER: It is talking about Abu Ghraib. It's saying -- it's strategy, these techniques -- the guy who ran Gitmo was sent over to Iraq later on, because they felt these were efficient techniques. He moved over to Gitmo. And then you have Abu Ghraib.

L. CHENEY: Yes, but, Anderson -- Anderson, you are completely rewriting history to say that there was a connection...

COOPER: I'm not. This is the Schlesinger report.

L. CHENEY: Well, no, but you are misinterpreting the Schlesinger report.

To say that there -- there somehow was a connection between the commander of Guantanamo and what happened at Abu Ghraib, that -- that is a complete disservice to him. What happened at Abu Ghraib was a crime. And happened at Abu Ghraib had absolutely nothing to do with the enhanced interrogation program, about which we have been having a national debate, that saved American lives.

So, it...

COOPER: So, one of the techniques, none of the things -- the pictures that we saw at Abu Ghraib, none of that was done at any of these other facilities?

L. CHENEY: Well, I wasn't at those other facilities. I do know what happened at Abu Ghraib was a crime and that the people there have been prosecuted.

The question that you should -- no, but, Anderson, the question that you should be asking...

COOPER: Well, 20 people -- but 100 people have died in U.S. custody, 20 of...

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: ... ruled a homicide.

L. CHENEY: Anderson, the question you should be asking is, when a terrorist has information about an attack on the United States, as we saw in the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, for example, is it the obligation of the president to, within the law, be able to get that information and save American lives?

And I think the vast majority of Americans believe it is.

COOPER: But...

(CROSSTALK)

L. CHENEY: Or is it the case, as President Obama has said, that we won't enlist any of these techniques; what we will do is, we allow the terrorists to lawyer up, and we will simply ask them nicely for information?

Now, that puts you in a position where you are sacrificing American lives because you are concerned about the rough treatment of terrorists. And that's not where the majority of the American people are. And I don't believe that that is fulfilling a president's duty to defend the nation.

COOPER: But that ticking-time-bomb scenario, which is often used, there's -- there's really very little -- little evidence -- maybe it's happened on one or two occasions, but there are...

(CROSSTALK)

L. CHENEY: Well, wouldn't it be nice to know that, though, Anderson? Wouldn't it be nice to be able to know specifically what we learned?

COOPER: I'm not saying -- I understand your position of wanting these things to be released, absolutely.

L. CHENEY: And I don't think that you can have this discussion...

COOPER: I think that's a very valid argument.

L. CHENEY: ... without saying, you know -- you know, you assert this, and I assert this, and the president asserts something.

But the president won't let the American people see. He was in the National Archives today, which is the building where these memos are housed. He could have walked up the stairs to the second floor of that building, and, with his pen, signed a declassification order, and those memos would be here tonight, so you and I could actually have a discussion about what we learned from the program.

But we're prevented from doing that because he is suppressing those memos.

COOPER: Well, I understand that. And I think you make a valid point on that.

Your father says that he is -- is speaking out for national security. And I think there's no reason not to believe that he firmly believes this and you firmly believe this.

But he is also -- and some in the Obama administration have made this argument today -- he's essentially defending policies which the Bush administration itself stepped away from, I mean, the Bush administration moved away from, after 2003, 2004, into 2005. L. CHENEY: No. that's...

COOPER: He's also defending policies which the Supreme Court, a Republican-dominated Supreme Court, repeatedly, or a pretty evenly split Supreme Court, repeatedly have rejected. And, so, isn't...

L. CHENEY: That's also wrong. No, I disagree with you, Anderson.

COOPER: ... in fact, he actually defending, then, his legacy more than national security, because...

L. CHENEY: No, that's -- that's not fair.

Look, in the case of the Supreme Court, you know, what happened was, the Bush administration worked very hard, after Supreme Court decisions which I happen to think were wrong in a number of instances, but worked very hard to make sure that things like the military commissions program were consistent with the law of the land. So, in fact, the programs that we were running at the end of the administration were consistent with those decisions.

With respect to enhanced interrogation, the fact that it stopped after a certain point proves the point that it was used on hardened terrorists, it was used at a time in our nation's history when we had very little information about al Qaeda and when we, in fact, needed that information.

And I would, you know, refer you to George Tenet on this...

COOPER: Right.

L. CHENEY: ... who said that we learned more from this program, in terms of preventing attacks and saving American lives, than, you know, the entire CIA and FBI and NSC combined.

COOPER: But more than 100 people are known to have died in U.S. custody. I think about 20 of those have been ruled a homicide.

I mean, if -- if these were just tightly-controlled things, how come so many people are being murdered in U.S. custody?

L. CHENEY: Well, Anderson, I think that your question is highly irresponsible. And I think that you're...

COOPER: Why?

L. CHENEY: Because you are conflating things that aren't conflated.

COOPER: What...

L. CHENEY: When somebody dies or is murdered in U.S. custody, then we are a great nation, and we take the people who are responsible, and we put them on trial, as you have seen happen a number of times now throughout the last eight years. That is not the enhanced interrogation program. And to somehow suggest that those two things are the same, I think, willfully conflates something, and -- and ends up in a situation where we are not able to sort of take a truthful look at the last eight years as we go forward, because we are muddying the waters about what really happened in the last eight years.

COOPER: Do you personally have any reservations about what may have gone on with these enhanced interrogation techniques, as you call them, under CIA control, or in Abu Ghraib, or in Bagram, or in Guantanamo? I mean, do you have -- do you have any doubts at all? Because your father seems, very clearly, to have no doubts.

L. CHENEY: Look, of course -- of course, as my father made clear today, what happened at Abu Ghraib shouldn't have happened. Nobody is defending what happened at Abu Ghraib.

I have no doubts at all, no reservations and no regrets. And, in fact, I feel that we all owe a debt of gratitude to the men and women at the CIA who carried out this program. I think there are American lives alive today because of that program.

And I think that it is the height of irresponsibility for the president to release those techniques, so that, you know, the terrorists can train to them, and now we have our hands tied. Every future president's hand will be tied and will not be able to use those techniques, if necessary.

COOPER: Well, it's an interesting discussion. I really appreciate you coming on and talking about it.

L. CHENEY: Thank you.

COOPER: All right.

L. CHENEY: I appreciate being here.

COOPER: Thanks very much.

L. CHENEY: Thanks.